The Secrets of Scaling your Business Revealed - The Kindred Studio | #Ep. 015
In this 15th episode of The E-comm Show, our host and BlueTuskr CEO Andrew Maff is with Jordan West of The Kindred Studio which also has his own Podcast (Secrets of Scaling Your E-commerce Brand). Learn more about the secrets to effectively scaling your e-commerce business.
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The Secrets of Scaling your Business Revealed
Andrew Maff and Jordan West
About Jordan West
Jordan West is a multi e-commerce store and agency owner.
This is going to be the best thing that's ever happened to Facebook marketing. This is the best thing for marketers because they have to get better. We have to get better. We have to get better creative better offer better coffee.
Hey guys, Dan Nikas here, I'm the founder of GearBunch.com.
This is Paul Johnson with MassView. Hey guys, this is Jordan west from Mindful Marketing and the Kindred studio and you're listening to you and you're listening and you're listening to, The E-comm Show
Welcome to The E-comm Show, presented by BlueTuskr. The number one place to hear the inside scoop from other e-commerce experts share their secrets on how they scaled their business and are now living the dream. Now, here's your host, Andrew Maff.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The E-comm Show. I'm your host Andrew Maff. And today I am joined by the amazing Jordan west of The Kindred Studio and of so many other things that we're gonna get into Jordan. Y'all set ready for a good show. I am so ready. Andrew, this is gonna be super fun. You've got a way better background than me. Normally, I feel like I've got the best background ever. Yeah, I mean, look at that. I did find a nice corner in my house that wasn't absolutely horrible. And this is this worked out pretty well. So I appreciate that. I'm also every episode, I always have the same thing I always say like, I'm super excited for this episode. And eventually, I'm gonna have to break that habit, but I'm not breaking it this time. The main reason is, you're the first person I've had on this show that also has their own podcast. So I know like the back and forth. I'm gonna love it. It's gonna be great. So, the usual way you tell everyone loves about yourself? Can your studio do all the other stuff you have going on? Obviously, we'll get into your podcast, but why don't you kick that off? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like my mind is spinning today, too. I had a big meeting about getting into NF T's and E-commerce. So my mind right now is there. So I'm going to try and get back down to like, non-crazy. I can't understand the world and back down here. But yeah, my name is Jordan West. I live just outside of Vancouver, British Columbia. We own a few brands now. Quite a few brands got into E-commerce around 2014 2015. I think we opened our Shopify store in 2015, our first Shopify store. Before that I was a failed restaurant entrepreneur, I bought a taco restaurant when I was like 22 or 23 years old, lost about $150,000 Throw it all of that I learned an incredible amount about how to run a business and how not to run a business what I was good at what I wasn't, and I really think that I wouldn't probably be where I am today without that failing. So for any of you guys that are failing right now, just know that there's an end to it. It's a good I mean, constant failure, probably not the greatest thing in the world. But I think that having some patience in your life. Yeah, totally, totally. So our big thing that we're getting into these days at the kingdom studio and some of our other businesses is really the acquisition game right now. That's what we're really focused on right now is seeing some of those brands where the founders haven't quite big, they've, they've got great proof of concept, but they can't take it to that next level. Normally, that's around the million-dollar mark, that people kind of get to, and they're like, Ah, I just can't really grow from here. I've seen it in a lot like friends, businesses, where they just kind of get to that level. And they're like, I don't know what to do now. And, and, and no, nothing that I have done. I just kind of have figured out how to grow businesses. Beyond that. I'm sure I'm going to get to a level where I'm like, I need someone else now. Or maybe that's where we exist but yeah, that's a little bit about me, but I'm sure more will come up. So on the Kindred studio side. So you have you just mentioned you obviously looking at acquisitions, and you see a lot of people that kind of hit that million-dollar mark. I know obviously, you guys have surpassed that. So what's what do you say is like your bread and butter that's actually helped you kind of surpass that. Honestly, I think it's a team right? I think that it's actually building teams when it's funny. We talk about e-commerce all the time, even like our podcast is called Secrets to scaling your E-commerce brand really should just be called Secrets to scaling your brand. Because I really truly believe that E-commerce is just a part of it. Right? It's just a part of your brand. There. There really aren't any successful. Only direct consumer brands out there anymore, right? They've all realized, oh my if I'm not going to go wholesale, I'm going to do flagship retail right like even halberds right was the who was like the ultimate direct consumer brand. Still not profitable as of today, which is totally fine. I think that they will get there and that's just a different business model. And then the way that I run our businesses, we love profits, profit is oxygen.
But really building brands right? And I think that's what it comes down to is that people get so in love and obsessed with the platform, and not realizing like, it's like, oh, I'm in DC, like, sure I'm in DC, as long as it works, right, I'm actually out there to build a brand and build a following. And so that's what we've done with all of the companies that we've got that we've purchased or that we've built up is we're really trying to build brands and loyal followings of people and then actually try to solve a problem or be there for them in whatever time that is nothing that includes the agency as well, right? We saw that especially for me having empathy for poor business owners who are struggling, right, and I understood it as like, the number of rent checks that I bounced back in the day to my poor landlord was just horrible. It's I feel like I've got that empathy for business owners when it's like, I know the way forward, this is the way forward. And so whether that's an acquisition or helping them out with marketing, or whatever it is, that's, that's where we come in there. To your agency is mindful marketing. Correct. as of the recording, yes, we've, we've got we're going through a rebrand right now, and I'm sure anybody has ever gone through the rebrand understands that we love the name mindful marketing, but there was all I gotta say is like Canadians, we're just not like Americans. We don't send me letters through lawyers. Do you know? You know, I got it. Did you piss off an American? Yeah, yeah. So oh, hey, I won't be the last. So yeah, well, that's that standard here. So, okay, so as of right now, it's mindful marketing, who knows what, what it will change into, but so you're what inspired you to create an agency and help other sellers out? Yeah, totally. So really, what happened was, as we were growing the business, there's a couple of things that happened. So my wife and I were working together on a daily basis with the business growing the business together. And I was on the marketing side of things. And she was on the creative direction sort of side, she's a fashion designer, we're in apparel mostly. So it was a great, great team, I just had such a passion for the marketing side of things. And I saw my friends that were also building businesses, at the same time have really bad experiences with agencies, sometimes we call them like churn farms, right? Where people will go in and it's like three months and see, right? And they just aren't, they weren't having great experiences. And I thought, well, I know how to do this. And so I just came in and did consulting for free, right, it was just like, I just wanted to help them out. And then suddenly, you know, we realized, and we saw the different places that people needed help. And this is, I don't even know how many years ago now, maybe 2016 2017, we realized, like people need this kind of help. And I just happened to also have at that time, it was just one business that also does this. And so we could always get proof of concepts through kindred or at the time, it was just little and lively, which is a baby and kids clothing brand. That was our first business in EECOM. And so I was able to help people out. And it was really, it really felt amazing. And then we started charging. And you know, we started, our first rates were like $500 a month to essentially do everything, and we were so pumped about it. And now we've grown the team pretty substantially since then. And it's really incredible to see, I think what gets me the most excited about all of it, is seeing the results that our clients are actually getting right that at the end of the day, we'll help the agency be successful. Right, when the clients are doing well. And generally, if we are doing well, in our businesses, we kind of know what is going to potentially work with our clients as well. And I assume all the brands under the Kindred studio are all clients of mine for marketing, right? Yes, absolutely. Yes. So do you have anyone internally on the Kindred studio side that acts specifically for marketing under kindred studio? Or is it kind of just your like you have like an in house
agency? Yeah, no, it's more so that I have one person at the agency that I deal with that runs our brands. So that's a really big Yeah, it's really important to have that one point of contact. There were times in the past where I had multiple points of contact, and it just didn't go well. Especially. I mean, you guys can probably understand running multiple businesses we have about counting the other day. I think it's close to 50 employees, between everybody, between all the businesses, it's just a lot of people. And my strengths are in people, right? So for me, that's where I want to live and who I want to be around is our people. And so I needed that one person that I could, that I could count on at the agency to be able to help run the market. And then we also had some internal marketing that we that is brand specific at each brand. I say because I mean, an agency kind of exacerbates that right. And the fact like, we really are a people business, like my most of my time is spent finding good people to be at the agency, it's really kind of the same, at least in my opinion, and E-commerce companies like where you really need to have people internally that you trust and that you can work with and that, you know, obviously are doing a fantastic job. So what's your, what's your like system, like when you're looking to hire and you're looking to bring on new people? It really, really depends. So we generally for higher-level kind of executive-level roles, we'll use a recruiter. And it's really about time, right? That's the biggest thing is we need that that person hired within and up and running within about a month, generally, when we identify a role. So we'll use a recruiter for some of those higher-level tasks. Also, with having multiple companies, you know, we don't have that internal yet, we're building out all of that as sort of in the shared back end, that we're building out right now. Which is a little bit more difficult than you'd think, building out that shared back end and trying to get buy-in because I do have generally what I'll do when we acquire a company, imagine I actually don't run them, right. So I'll bring in somebody who's really hungry and wants to earn in to actually run the companies. And so I still need to get buy-in from them on the different ways that we're going to do things, but generally, we've systematized it where when we're hiring will hire with a recruiter based on our collective culture, right, and the culture that we're trying to create. Yeah. So kindred studio, how did you get that whole thing started? How did that? How did you get into that? That product line? Yeah, so we started. Again, I think it was 2014 2015. Somewhere around there. When we had our first child, Daphne, she was in cloth diapers, and my wife was looking everywhere for leggings that fit over the top of cloth diapers, and nothing, just absolutely nothing would fit. And so she had been in fashion design school years before wasn't really using it just a little bit. And she's like, Oh, I can quickly whip out a pattern. So she did put them on, showed some friends. They're like, Oh, this is amazing. You should take those to some markets. And so we went to some markets, they would sell out every single time. And then we got our first wholesale order from a place about three hours away, we drove the wholesale order up there is like a $500 wholesale order. We're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And, and from there, we just started to add products. And people love them. It started out as my wife's name was Carmen West creative littles. And then it's, and then it morphed into a little unlikely, and that was the brand that people really knew. And then we had some weird brand identity issues when we brought in women's clothing, and pajamas and all sorts of stuff like that. So we ended up creating new brands for them. And then since then, we've also acquired some brands that we've put into the umbrella of the studio. So when you see an E-commerce company typically trying to grow usually their next step, if they feel they've capped out with a certain product line is to expand the product line, you sound like you expand the product line, but almost spun it off into a different brand. So what made you kind of do that direction where it's almost like you have to basically like start over all of your marketing again, which might have just been fun for you. But what was the thought process there? Yeah, totally.
So we were what we were trying to figure out is there's kind of two ways to go when you're thinking about multiple brands scenario, right? You either have a house of brands, so I think p&g is a really great example, right? Nobody knows there's no Procter and Gamble product, right? They are a house of brands. So that's what we've decided to do at the Kindred studios. So the Kindred studio houses, the brands that all fit the same sort of aesthetic, the same culture. They're all for the same customer. So that's the house of brands idea. And then there's a branded house and blanking on a good example of a branded house. It's pretty common as well, right? The for these companies. We're kind of going back and forth as one of our American acquisitions right now with new acquisitions that we were going to bring in there, whether we're going to go branded house or house of brands, I really like House of brands. The reason why I like it is that it's very easy to take one of them and split them off, right and potentially sell them or say you want to get into some other channels, right like Amazon. Well, we would create a whole store based around that brand. Right brands are just so powerful. And so creating multiple brands without creating confusion is really important. So one that we acquired earlier this year was back in the jet. And they've got baby hair, hair bows, the reason we acquired it was, first of all, they had a ton of subscribers to monthly both subscriptions are really like that subscription sort of aspect. The other one was that we noticed when people bought for their babies at zero to three months that their average lifetime value was $1,200. And so we're like, well, let's get them in at both stage. And, and take them all the way through, right, and get that customer lifetime value out of them. Once they, you know, try our clothes. That was sort of the thought with that. Does that answer your question? Andrew? Yeah, yeah, definitely does. So you, you know, you decided to spin it off in different brands. So obviously, you kind of have your all apparel, and you're obviously the marketing guy. And the one thing I know is that apparel is very, very complicated to stand out. And you actually, you know, you really got to be able to know who your customer is. And you have to, you know, really tell a story. So what is your since you're obviously the marketing guy there, what has been your approach to make sure that your different brands are standing out in what's an incredibly crowded space? So I think the thing that we stumbled upon was baby clothing. Right? I think that that was the real key for us was getting into the baby market. sizing is not nearly as much of an issue as it is for women's apparel, as well reviews, right, having tons of reviews, tons of user-generated content, and then just building up that trust, right. You know, anyone can make clothes, but having clothes that you actually want to wear right in you're going to tell your friends about, that's really important. So for us, you know, we make everything here in Canada, my wife still designs, every single item that we make, obviously, you know, we have pretty substantial manufacturing going on here. But that was really the starting out with Baby. Baby clothes were really the key to all of this because it's just, it's a much easier purchase to make. Parents, specifically moms will spend hundreds of dollars on their baby's clothes before they'll spend anything on their clothes. Right. And so So for us, when we started to introduce adult clothing, it doubled our business right away, because everyone already knew the quality of clothing that we made. I think that's really what helped us stand out. And then and then just finding those needs that people have those certain kinds of clothing needs, and making clothes that people actually want to tell their friends about when we do post-purchase surveys, about 40% of people said that they found out about us, these are first time customers from friends or family. So we know that word of mouth is really what we're built on. As well as obviously, we need to acquire new customers all the time, then that's just part of the game. But that's really where it came from. So with you know, as you said, it's acquiring that first customer and then the lifetime value obviously makes up for all that. What is your tactic on acquiring that initial customer-like way? I've seen it a lot of times and apparel influencers work fantastically. Some people prefer to go to pay to go the paid ads route, obviously, it's typically a mix of all of the above. But what which direction? Do you usually lean forward when you're either first acquiring customers or when you're first launching a brand? Yeah, great, great question. So I am not in the launching brand mode anymore. We, I'm 35. Now I've done a lot of startups, we've done a lot of launching, I'm I don't want to do any more launching.
So but really, when it comes to new products, it's all for me, it's still all about paid ads, that is the very first place that we're going to put it. When when we're launching a new product, we're gonna start with paid ads, we'll also send to influencers to get some photos, we've got a really great stable of influencers that we already use that we know their sizing and all of that, we'll send it to them, we'll get some great photography and some great user-generated content, hopefully, get some reviews out of them as well. And then we'll and then we'll start to launch to the general public. But you've got to have those reviews on there. People need to have that trust, something great that we've found in the apparel world for any apparel, people that are listening to this is a service called to wear. And so we send them all of our measurements, and they have an eight-question setup, that when people are looking for their size, it's like 98% of the time it's correct. Our return rate is so ridiculously low. So they use this AI formula that essentially picks their size for them. People who use the formula convert at 10% of the time compared to you know around the classic 2% conversion rate that we have on our website. Wow. That's impressive. Yeah. So let's pivot a little bit over to Your agency to mindful marketing as of right now, that's what it's called. Um, so you and you mentioned you usually go the paid ads route. So is mindful marketing, typically cater to the paid ad side? Are you more of a full service? What's your agency? Like? Yeah, so we started with page, right? That was, that was really where we saw a ton of our success, that was the lever that was just so easy to pull for brands, right? A lot of brands were really scared to get into the paid space, you know, wasting a lot of money. And, and, and that was pre-iOS 14.5, right, where it was, like, you know, this is the way that you grow is with paid ads, and some good, you know, email follow-ups and these sorts of things. You know, since then, we've really grown as an agency. And I think it's because of some of the pivots that we've made to help our clients out. So retention marketing is a huge part of what we do now. So email and SMS, as well as delving into the SEO game. Search engine optimization is super interesting, right? Because it's something before that, I would have just been like, who cares? Like, don't put your money into SEO, like paid ads are kind of the way to go. But now, you know, now that people are realizing that the results aren't quite what they used to be, you know, coming up with some longer term strategies, I think is really, really important. And that's where I, I really, truly believe that SEO. I mean, if you're on LinkedIn at all or even the Shopify Plus forum on Facebook, it's what people are asking about right now. People are really trying to and it's a great thing. They're really trying to diversify their marketing stack. And so yeah, so that's essentially what we do. At mindful at the mindful as of today, with originally started and paid ad side. Obviously, you mentioned when you do a product launch over at Kindred studio usually catered to the paid ads side, what's your ideal channel that you guys usually kick off with? Is it safe to assume it's Facebook? Absolutely, yeah. It's really, it's really Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube as well, right? We've got these massive lists of retargeting audiences that we can still use even post iOS 14.5. And so we'll let them know, we also have a really thriving VIP group. And so we'll get their, their thoughts and suggestions on some of the new product launches. But yeah, on the paid ad side, will always create a great video for it to love going on YouTube with that. And then Facebook and Instagram still even post Iowa's 14.5 That's still the place where we're seeing the most success, I think second would be Google search as well. But again, that's not You're not going to necessarily do a product launch on Google search. But we do have a big enough audience now that even just going to our warm audience with new products generally will sell out. What was your strategy now? Well, what is your strategy now after the 14.5? Change?
Yeah, it's a great question. So a little bit of the stuff that we talked about. So looking at some of those longer-term strategies, so things that we were already developing pre-iOS 14.5. So we have an app, we're creating an app for one of our brands that keeps nature wild down in the States, really looking forward to that app. The Loyal loyalty and community guys, loyalty is not just about, you know, giving somebody 10% off because they purchased a couple of times, right, like, really, truly building community. And so down to keep nature wild, we've got a massive community that we're growing down there, we've got a group of almost 6000 people called the wild keepers, they go and clean up trails. And so we're really trying to build together with an app, potentially some NFT. In NFT, I don't even know what you call IPO or ICO. getting that out there and really getting the community involved in picking up trash on trails. That's what we're really, really passionate about down there. And so pairing that together with an app where people can log the trash that they picked up, they can take pictures, they can share, they can also shop. That, to me is really where we're part of web three is going to go to I mean, I completely agree that you know, just like any business should diversify away from being solely reliant specifically, if anyone's like solely relying on Amazon or something that diversifying is obviously key. And for marketers, now it's the same thing that you can't be so reliant on one channel because it can get pulled out from under you kind of like Facebook was. But you've also mentioned that Facebook is still even after 14.5 is still doing fantastic for you did on Facebook specifically. Did you have to make any adjustments to you know, did you see any law after the change? Or did you have to change anything after like, what did that look like when that happened? Absolutely. Yeah, as marketers, we've just had to get way better. Right? Like, we just really had to focus on the things that matter. So copy, creative and offer. Those are the things that we talk about all the time. I just recently on my podcast seeker scaling e-commerce brand I had Mollie Pittman on and Molly's who I learned marketing from back in like 2013 2014. And it was really great to hear what she said, cuz I remember going through when I first started Facebook marketing going through I don't know if you if anybody remembers this but when there were two pixels, right, the old I don't even know what it was exactly through the way that they were tracking things. But everyone was doing great, right that everyone was doing great. And it was like, Okay, we're now combining the pixels together. And we're going to have the new Facebook pixel. And I remember everybody freaking out about it and being like, oh, my gosh, this is the end. As for Molly Pittman being like, this is going to be the best thing that's ever happened to Facebook marketing. And it's interesting because, on our podcast, she said the exact same thing. So this is the best thing for marketers because they have to get better, right, we have to get better, we have to get better creative, better offer better copy, we actually at the agency, now we've hired just a full-time copywriter because the copy is so important. It's just like, it's something that that really it sells the product. And before it was like, Ah, just get a nice picture up in front of them, they'll sell they'll buy, we can get a row as of you know, four or five awesome brands making money all day. Right. And now we've just had to actually try. And that's hard for a lot of people. If you're not a marketer, if you're just a one-trick pony, that's like, yeah, the Facebook ads cool, like, you're going to be screwed, right? If you're not now you are going to be in the future. And so really actually understanding buyer psychology, the customer journey, and running a business, all the things are so important. So obviously, you have someone in-house now helping you at the copy side of the agency, what do you do in terms of creativity? Do you have a studio available? Do you go to your clients and get pictures? Like what do you do for all the creative side of things? Yeah, so for creative, we're more so giving creative direction to the brands, I really don't think that in today's day and age, I think unless you're a really big studio agency, I still think that the brands that are going to start working with agencies still will do creative in house, still do the basic kind of creative, and then we'll take it and make it you know, for whatever platform we're using. But I think being able to find an agency that's really able to give you that direction on what to do and exactly how to do it, I think is really important. And that's really where we are. On the advising side. I don't think that giving up creative control of your brand is always the best idea. I think that there are some incredible agencies out there that specialize in that. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily go to an e-commerce agency for that.
So we kind of touched on kindred studio we touched on obviously your agency is obviously only fair that we touch on your podcast as well. So the podcast you mentioned to me, I think right before this, you guys are coming up on your 300th episode, correct? We're somewhere around there. I should actually look. But yeah, we're in that we're in the high two hundred right now. Wow. That's congratulations. How had well a what you know, what kind of people do you have in your show? Like, what who's it for? Let's go down that route now. Sure, yes, the secret to scaling your e-commerce brand. I really try and bring on founders and then people who are making a difference in econ right now. So we've had some incredible founders on, had the guys from Movement Watches on. I've had Steven Borelli from cuts clothing, we've had just all sorts of really great brands that have kind of come up in this digital era that, you know, super interesting to kind of see how they work ahead, one of the founders of Roan on their CMO, and that was a really cool interview, and then seeing what they've done since and going, really doing exactly what we're seeing in the marketplace right now, which is going flagship retail. Right. So Rhone opened up in downtown New York. And I think they've opened a couple more locations since they're really inspiring to me with that, so I really try and bring on those founders that are not only at that sort of level, you know, that like high eight figures kind of level, but also the ones that are kind of in that sort of two to $5 million level, where they're really helping the people who are listening to the podcast, who are you know, those are the people who I'm really obsessed with right now. And those are the ones that are, are really trying to, to make a go of it and you know, might be in that sort of level where, you know, they're still running everything. They're kind of maybe in that, you know, million-dollar revenue range, and just like, ah, where do I go from here? How do I scale up? Because at that point, it's still a difficult business. It's a very difficult business and I was just chatting with a friend last night, it's like, hi, wish I had that extra $2 million of revenue to hire an incredible team. And that's really what it's about is once you get to that certain level, and if you can do like guys, everything because I look at a lot of cap tables, if you can, whatever Do try and keep control of your company, right? So that when you have an opportunity to have a strategic investor come in that you've got control of your cap table and you don't have to worry about everybody else. Anyway, so here's the scale agreed conference brand this. These are the kinds of things I love talking about on there. I've had some incredible guests as we're Firestone Mollie Pittman, I've got more digital marketer, marketer people coming up soon Ryan Deiss. Rolling Fraser who has really inspired me to acquire more companies and how easy and simple it really is. We've done three acquisitions this year, guys, and it's incredible. So yeah, that's what we like to talk about at Seacoast scaling your e-commerce brand. That's awesome. Yeah, you definitely have a really nice lineup there. People you've had it. I know. I saw Roland Frasier before too. I'm not on the podcast, but just met him a couple of times traveling versions, obviously. Yeah, Mark some of his stuff on acquiring businesses sometimes with like, no cash and just working out deals that way. Some of the talks I've seen him do on that are fantastic. So as soon as that episode comes out, I'm turning in to that one because that guy is a very interesting person. And yeah, it was just my calendar. So he's so creative in the way that he can look at acquiring different businesses. Amazing. Yeah. So what's in the pipeline for you now? So obviously, you know, the year is winding down into studio is doing really well. Are your agencies going on your podcast going? What's next for Jordan? Yeah, yeah, great question. I think I'm gonna just continue to work, we're gonna continue to acquire more and more brands. I'm guys, I'm going down the NFT rabbit trail right now.
Potentially, together with a good friend who is just absolutely obsessed in the industry, no idea what it is yet. I've kind of wrapped my head around the whole idea of NF T's. But just seeing the success that and the push that Gary Vee is making towards it. I have no doubt that web three is just going to be you know, we're kind of like in the early 2000s, or maybe like the mid-2000s Before web two, which was mobile, right? Like, which just like absolutely, and I could never wrap my head around what that was like when people were talking about Yeah, like, everyone's gonna have a phone and the phone's gonna be in front of them and it's all going to be there and I could never wrap my head around that like you know what, I want to get ahead of this one. I really want to get ahead of this one. So my obsession I think in the next year is going to be helping out brands that I really believe in and hopefully coming on their board and their cap table and ownership and really helping out those kinds of brands. We've got some cool opportunities right now. So that's what I'm super pumped about. So with web three, you got entities, you have all the different crypto stuff. You've obviously Metaverse, it's now the whole thing. Like it's clearly something is about to happen. What do you think is going to be what is web three looks like? So I think that web three, I think like, like all things, you know, people are always so scared about, you know, that we're going to be zombies. Right? And that we're not gonna Yeah, that we're not going to interact with each other. But interestingly, like, I don't hate on phones, phones have actually helped me connect with people that I would have never connected with and actually stay in touch with people. And yeah, sure, maybe it's not like, like incredible connection all the time. But now I'm actually connected with all of these people that I wasn't before. And I really think that web three is going to what is going to do in some aspects is flip the economy on its head, right? And we're seeing that with crypto, right? It's made up, it's all made up. Right? This is the crazy thing is that everything we do is made up money is just made. It's just an idea. It's all just ideas very similar to the blockchain. I mean, if anything, Blockchain is even more secure, right than anything that we have right now. You can't really like fake anything on the blockchain. And so so I really believe that, that what's going to happen is brands, if you're a brand listening to this, you are going to need to embrace web three. And I truly believe and I actually am stealing this from a friend that I talked to earlier today that's going all-in on NF T's is that the brands that will succeed are going to have their community on their cap table. So they're going to have a community that is part of the ownership and I think that through NF T's that's the way to do it. That's a very interesting thought. I actually never thought I'd look at it that way. That's like that. I know I'm like sitting here like That's okay, that makes sense. Sorry, you'd now set me off. But anyway, so Jordan, really appreciate having your show. I don't want to take up too much more of your time. I know you're obviously this is that stereotypical moment where I let you kind of tell everyone a little bit more about yourself and where they can find you. All the different stuff you have going on. and we'll go from there. Awesome. The best place to contact me is on LinkedIn. So just search Jordan West marketer on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and generally unless you're trying to set up some kind of meeting with me because I don't really have time I will get back to you so so, yeah that's the best place and then if you guys want to find out more about what we do at mindful marketing, you can go to mindfulmarketing.co and then if you want to give our podcast a little listen just go to Secrets To Scaling Your E-commerce Brand. And hopefully, I will not bore you too much over there. Thank you so much, Jordan West, go check them out, obviously on LinkedIn, thank you so much, everyone, who tuned in and listen today to the usual sort of rich, make sure you rate us review subscribe us so you can check us out at ecommshow.com or on YouTube but until next time, we'll see you out there and thanks so much. See you next week.
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