How to Build a Brand and Reach B Corp Status - Rumpl | EP. #40

On this 40th episode of The E-Comm Show, our host and BlueTuskr CEO Andrew Maff is with Wylie, the CEO of Rumpl, a brand that specializes in providing better blankets by using top-notch performance materials that you'd typically find in premium outdoor gear and apparel. Years later and after showing on Shark Tank, Rumpl has now reached B Corp status. Tune in as Wylie shares their story from how they started in the back of a van to building a successful 7-digit brand with B corp status.

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How to Build a Brand and Reach B Corp Status

SPEAKERS

Andrew Maff and Wylie Robinson

CONNECT WITH OUR HOST: AndrewMaff.com  |  Twitter: @AndrewMaff | LinkedIn: @AndrewMaff

Wylie Robinson

Wylie is the founder and CEO of Rumpl, a company that specializes in creating everyday blankets out of the same performance materials that you'd typically find in premium outdoor gear and apparel. Before starting Rumpl Wylie was a brand designer at Landor Associates in San Francisco. He lives in Portland Oregon with his wife and their two sons.

Transcript:

00:00

is the sort of capitalistic benefit I guess I'll answer first which is it increases enterprise value consumers value it and investors and shareholders

00:12

Hey everyone this is Nezar Akeel of Max Pro. Hi I'm Linda and I'm Paul and we're

00:20

Love ann Pebble. Hi this is Lopa Van Der Mersch from RASA you're listening to and you're listening and you are listening to The E-Comm Show.

00:33

Welcome to The E-Comm Show, presented by BlueTuskr, the number one place to hear the inside scoop from other e-commerce experts. They share their secrets about how they scaled their business and are now living the dream. Now, here's your host, Andrew Maff. 

00:52

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The E-Comm Show. As usual, I'm your host, Andrew Maff. And today I'm joined by the amazing Wiley Robinson of Rumpl. Wiley, how're you doing? Ready for a good show. I'm ready for a great show. Andrew, thanks for having me. So can be a good one. I'm super excited to have you here. So obviously, at this point, you guys have grown very large, you had an appearance on Shark Tank, you've been around for, I think nine plus years at this point. So there's a lot of stuff to go through. However, I'd love to give you kind of the opportunity here to just kind of kick us off, give us a little bit about how you got started where you were originally before you got into a rumble, and we'll go from there. Sure, so

01:30

I'll start with where I was. I actually have a design background. So I got a degree in architecture from the University of Colorado. Following graduating, I sort of migrated my way more into branding. There's, there's a couple of steps I took there. But eventually, I found myself at a branding agency called Landor Associates in San Francisco, and a really large branding agency they have like 20 or 20 or so offices around the world, doing you know, all sorts of branding systems for global brands. So obviously identity but voice, you know content, retail environments, tradeshow experiences, integrated marketing campaigns, all this basically every single touch point you might see from a consumer brand. And that gave me a really good education about creating this holistic experience that sort of identifies the brand. And its, its identity and, and really its core personality. So that's where I was most recently before starting rumble. And I And so I'll sort of migrating down to the founder story, I guess. It was during a break I had from work in 2012. And a friend and I took a car ride down the coast of California we were we were surfing a bunch on the way down there. And the plan was to head east and drive up through the Sierras skiing on the way back up to San Francisco, which is where we were living at the time. We stayed one night in Mammoth and had some hot springs we knew of out there. And it ended up being like the coldest night on record and mammoth, Mammoth and we woke up the next morning car wouldn't start. And we were pretty much just stuck in our car for a bunch of hours until somebody would show up to help us. And we climbed into our sleeping bags and went to talk about how we really liked the feeling of our sleeping bags more than our blankets back home. And it kind of clicked to us like well, why wouldn't we just make a blanket out of the same material as a sleeping bag, you know, it's you don't have to wash it as often it doesn't pick up odor or you know, debris, it doesn't you really it's lower maintenance. And we like the feeling of these materials. So that was the original idea. And we eventually got back to San Francisco and ended up selling a prototype. And that was kind of the end of the idea. We had no real ambition to start a company at that point. But as we kept using these things, and we kept realizing how versatile they were, you know, we would pull them off our bed and bring them out to go to a concert or something or go hang out in the park in San Francisco, and a bunch of our friends Expresses like, Hey, this is a really interesting idea. You know, I think I might be interested in something like this. And so at that time, we were still pretty unsure if this was a viable business idea. But we turned to Kickstarter because it's a pretty low-dose, low-risk way to test the idea. And the Kickstarter did really, really well, it ended up you know, pre-selling about a quarter million dollars in 30 days. So that told us, Okay, this is a legitimate idea, we can start a business here. And during that time that that was all happening, that's when we really kind of honed in, like what the mission of the company would be, which is to introduce the world to better blankets. And the way we think about that is blanketed as a category has been relatively unchanged for like 1000s of years. I mean, truly. Yeah, first some of the first textiles ever created by humans are in fact blankets. And they are these, you know, pretty archaic natural fibers that make up the vast majority of the category. You know, cotton's and wolves and things like that. They're great materials, but they lack a lot of the performance that we see in some of the newer textiles that have come through apparel and outdoor gear, and sporting goods. And really what we're trying to do at Red Bull is just draft off of some of those textile innovations that are happening in those categories, and use those innovations for this form factor and for this category. So that's the big picture of the company and what we're really trying to accomplish.

05:15

Now, the concept, the company has also kind of evolved since then, because I know you've definitely gone into sustainability approach, you're now benefiting other designers like what kind of had you? Or I guess I should say, at what point did you realize like, Okay, we need to take this now into almost these, this more modern era of building a brand around sustainability and having a cause, and, you know, all of the rights around that happens there. So what kind made you move in that direction?

05:46

Yeah, so I'll go, I'll go back again, to the mission of the company, which is to introduce the world to better blankets. And we took a long time kind of thinking about like, what, in fact, makes a blanket better. And what we came to was, was two very distinct things. Number one is the materials that we're using in the product. So I kind of already touched on that. And that's, that's fairly on the nose, it's obvious, you know, you take performance materials and use them in this form factor, and there you have it a higher performing product. That's the first piece, the second piece, which speaks to all the things you're talking about, is really developing an emotional connection with the customer for a product category that is already highly emotive. Right, so the way you use a blanket is you wrap up an ad to feel warm and cozy, and comfortable. It's like this, it's actually this very sort of tactile, you know, warming experience that you have with the product, and it's highly emotive inherently. And so our goal was doing things like becoming a B Corp, you know, climate neutral, 1% of the planet, all the artist's partnerships, is really developing a brand that people love, obviously, like, morally, we want to be doing those things as well, you know, like, we want to, we want to build a business responsibly. But consumers value that as well. And so it enhances the emotional connection they have with the brand, and effectively with the product that they're experiencing. So that that to us also makes this a, quote, better blanket, if it's got that emotional connection to it.

07:09

And you mentioned the B Corp, we've had a few sellers on the show before that have gone in that direction, what made you kind of turn the company into a B Corp and start down that journey?

07:19

Yeah, I mean, it's something that we've always wanted to do since the beginning. But the administrative lift of converting to a B Corp is significant. And we ended up looking into it more, and I can tell you about how we ended up doing that in a second. But we were actually operating pretty much like a B Corp, we really didn't have to change much about the fundamentals of the company at all. In order to qualify, we just had to track it and had to record all of it, you know, a couple of things like we have a couple of policies at the company that wasn't sort of formalized into policy documents, you know, relating to, you know, paternal leave. And, and or, excuse me, maternity leave, maternity leave, and a variety of another sort of employee benefits that we offer at the company. And we didn't have like formal documents, expressing those. So part of becoming a B Corp was actually just formalizing a lot of things we were already doing. And so the way that we actually did the administrative lift a bit, which again, is really significant, is we were approached by a student at western Colorado University who was doing an MBA program in sustainability. And his Capstone, like his thesis final project, as he wanted to find an outdoor brand that he could help shepherd into B Corp status. And he was a big fan of Ron Paul and approached us at a trade show. And I thought, well, yeah, this is great, this is a win-win here, you know, I feel that ask of your project, and you know, hopefully, we can come out of this with a B Corp certification. And I think both of us were overwhelmed with the amount of work that ended up being when we were first starting down the path. It was like, you know, do you have recycling in the office? We were like, yeah, check, we're gonna this is gonna be easy. And, you know, 800 questions later, and factory audits, you know, like, really a lot of clerical work. And finally, we're in a place where we were ready to submit and ended up achieving B Corp status. So we were super proud of that.

09:18

How long did that take you to go through the entire step when you met this person at the trade show to finally get awarded the B Corp?

09:27

Probably six to seven months, I would say wow. And I was checking in with him weekly for an hour or two and we'd go through this self-assessment that you fill out. So basically, what you do is you do like a self-audit. You they have a whole scorecard and you fill it out for yourself on your own behalf. You submitted them to the lab, and then they verify all of your claims. So they come back they ask for receipts, they ask for certifications, and they ask for formal policy documents, like the one I was talking about. And they say okay, yes, they say they're doing these things. They are in fact doing them. And that was just a lot of questions, a lot of questions, and a lot of verification needed by the lab.

10:06

I say you're, that's so far the most common answer we got is that it takes forever and is a nightmare in terms of admin, what's for your side of things outside of the obvious of the label? What is the benefit for Rumball? Being a B Corp?

10:23

I mean, the sort of capitalistic benefit, I guess I'll answer first, which is it increases enterprise value unquestionably, you know, it's of it, consumers value it, and investors and shareholders also value it. And presumably, it leads to more sales, you know, it's really tough to quantify that. But there is plenty of validation that consumers care about this stuff. And they buy from businesses that have that B Corp status, on the personal level, and the moral level, you know, in running this business, and I would say anybody that runs a consumer business that cares about the environment and cares about our impact on the planet, you see firsthand when you visit your factories, like, wow, we're actually like, you know, having an impact here, we're, you would, the best thing that you could do as a business for the environment would be to shut down your business, I mean, truly like to not actually produce the goods you're producing. And that's, that's the real truth. No one will commit that. But that is the truth. And so by doing things like getting B Corp, certification, or offsetting your carbon or donating to causes like, through 1%, for the planet, it at least offsets some of the damage you're causing by the inherent nature of running a business. So it feels good morally, personally, to at least feel like we're making an effort and a step in the right direction there.

11:41

Yeah. So you mentioned your factories and having to go through that whole process. Are you? is most of the products made here in the US? Do you? Are you outsourcing it at all? Is it a mix of both? What's your process there?

11:53

Yeah, it's all entirely coming out of southern China. And we do that for a couple of reasons. I mean, fundamentally, China has a comparative advantage and an absolute advantage in producing performance textiles. So it's the nature that the lowest opportunity cost to produce these types of products. And they also can produce the most of it and the best of it. And so it's, it's the obvious choice for us to go that's where the vast majority of the apparel performance apparel industry is produced. And, and part of the B Corp certification was auditing all of the supply chains, you know, overseas, making sure that we are operating out of mills and factories that are not in conflict zones, making sure that the transportation between these these different touch points is minimized as much as possible, making sure that you know, the carp, another part of it is the carbon we offset each year, we track all the carbon from each of those legs of the supply chain overseas and offset all those carbon emissions as well. So it's, it's, it's definitely not easier to make things in Asia, I think that's a common misconception. It's, it's just you get better output, you get you better quality products, get more access to raw materials. And you can do it faster. So it's the obvious place to make things. We've done explorations around making things closer to us. And, and the real advantage really is the sea freight, you know, and sometimes you get duty and tariff benefits as well. But generally, the product is not superior, at least in our category that we found closer to states.

13:26

Yeah, do you have to So obviously, you think of performance materials, you think of like Under Armour, and Nike and Adidas and all these guys, every time they come out, and they, you know, have somehow improved upon the performance material that they have, do you go back and relook at, okay, what did they make and see if you can start sourcing that? Or have you kind of developed your own? You know, proprietary blend of everything. What's, what's the process like there?

13:57

Yeah, I mean, generally speaking, we don't have a lot of proprietary materials, we do have one installation type that we developed called Nano loft. It's a, it's a, it's a small filament, that's that's basically balled up and creates a small little ball that mimics down. That is something that we developed and trademarked. But that's a very small percentage of our total product portfolio. The vast majority of our product is made using what would be considered off-the-shelf material. It's recycled, 30 D polyester, and siliconized, hollow fiber insulation, which is readily available and uses a lot of other companies' products. To your question about do we track market trends? For sure, yeah, I mean, we don't necessarily act on all of them, but we definitely try to stay aware of what's popular and apparel, what's popular in outdoor gear, athletic equipment, all that stuff. And we haven't leveraged a lot of it, you know, honestly, like we are our product portfolios, not that broad. And that's large because we're still a pretty new company. And we want to make sure that when customers find out about See us for the first time, it's a really concise message that they get. It's like, oh, they make these cool blankets. You know, that's, that's the main thing they do. And I think if we came out with too many products with too many different technology tags, it could become confusing to that customer that's coming to us for the first time, once the brand has, you know, penetrated more of the world, more of the country, more of the world, there's more brand awareness, that's a time when we might consider expanding future product lines and leveraging some of those other materials that are developed by bigger companies.

15:30

Yeah. You mentioned that you're a newer company. Granted, it's, you know, it's always interesting to hear people refer to themselves as whether they're a new company, they've been around for a long time, we've interviewed people on the show that have been around for 100 plus years, which was crazy. And then we have others that are newer, because they've been around for a few years, but you're kind of like that 910-year mark ish? What is it that you kind of, like, what makes you feel like you guys are kind of a newer company?

15:57

Couple things. I mean, first and foremost, the category itself that we're trying, to introduce is very much a new category, you know, blankets have been around. But this is we really believe this is an evolution of that category. And so that's a new thing for consumers. And so, so positioning wise, our brand and our product offering is new, you know, quote-unquote, additionally, we really didn't kind of start scaling super fast until probably three years ago, you know, starting from zero, we were kind of chugging along, and I think we reach probably $5 million in revenue by year three, or four. And really after that is when it started scaling. So the brand awareness that we generate in those first three, four years was really pretty insignificant. And, you know, we just didn't come out of the gate as fast as some other companies, but we really picked up over the last few years. And so I think that for most people, they might look at Rob pool and think that it's, you know, a 234-year-old company, but we were kind of hovering around that, you know, smaller stage for quite a while also

16:59

did so you had mentioned in the beginning, you know that this was an idea that was kind of spurred from a trip with you and your buddy at the mammoth. And you know, you had this idea. At what point once you released it, did you start to see competition coming into the market after? Because I know you mentioned you did a Kickstarter campaign to 250 in the first 30 days. Obviously, you've kind of put it out into the public at that point. It did you at what point did you start seeing competition coming in?

17:25

We started seeing competition pretty quickly. But it was largely sort of direct from factory Amazon type knockoff product. It really wasn't until probably, I would say three years in that we saw, like real brands coming out with similar products, you know, brands that actually have some momentum and some traction and do other things. Well, and they're known by customers. So now it's rampant. I mean, there's like tons of you know, rumbles out there that are made by reputable brands. So yeah, it was probably two, or three years. And I would say that like a real brand competitor. We saw. Yeah.

18:02

So you started to ramp up. You said about three-ish years ago, give or take. Obviously, though, I believe it was last year that you went on to Shark Tank and did that whole approach, what made you decide to go onto the show if you were kind of already starting to see some growth from the year two prior.

18:21

So 2020 was the shark tank here, so about two years ago, but we went on just because, you know, I for a long time, I sort of, I don't know, snuck my nose a little bit going on that it was like I know, we're established business, I'm gonna get torn apart if I go and to some extent I details. But you're wrong. But I don't know, I just thought like, this is an opportunity to broadcast the brand. And the product to 5 million people, you know, is a huge audience that watches that show. I thought that you know, I did go on wanting to actually strike a deal to help us expand into licensing now. We've ended up doing it on our own. But that was definitely, you know, I think that it could have been, I think it could have been accelerated with help from a shark. I mean, I do think that inroads to those leagues can be established more easily if you have a reputable backer behind you, that may have the ability to knock down some doors. So you know, when in thinking that this is kind of new territory for the brand, you know, we're largely outdoor brands or an outdoor channels, and we're trying this thing with NFL and licensed product and more mainstream sports. And, and that's a big sort of divergence from where we've been historical. And so it's almost like I wanted to bring in a new partner and new capital and new resources to do this expansion project. And, yeah, of course, I could have had what we ended up doing is we used our own internal resources to do it. It's just a bigger gamble doing it that way, you know? So, what ended up making me want to go on there was the exposure for sure, but also getting a new partner that can help with this extension for the brand?

20:07

Yeah. So you obviously, as you mentioned, got the licensing, it's now available on your site, you, you know, so you expanded the product line, at least from a design aspect in that way. And then I also know that you developed a program, I believe it's rad. Correct? Yeah. Rumble, forgive me rumble. Yeah, division. Thank you. I was like, what's the DE? So what's, what is that whole? What's that whole process? Like? So what made you kind of go into? You know, essentially, you're bringing in these talented artists to submit design work that then you know, I, What's that process like, of selecting what actually gets made?

20:48

Yeah. So just real quickly, going back a little bit, also, again, to just anchor why we do it. It's, again, part of that desire to create that emotional connection with the customer and make a memorable product that they really care about, not just kind of some commodity blanket that uses these technologies. So with the RAD program, yeah, I mean, it's, it's actually very different depending on the artist. Some artists approached us other artists we approach other artists were introduced to through artists we've worked with previously. And, and also the creation of the piece that we ended up using is always very different. So sometimes, you know, it's an artist that says, Hey, I've got this thing that I, you know, I've worked with a couple of other brands on and I put this pattern on anything, and it sells really well. And it does really well and raises awareness about this thing I'm trying to talk about. And we say, okay, perfect, let's use that art. Other times, we really care a lot about having bespoke art, and essentially commissioning art where we, where we sort of art direct them a little bit and tell them what we want the look and feel to be. And they create a completely new bespoke piece. It also is very different depending on what the artist wants in terms of compensation. You know, some artists want to get some sort of percentage of sales, other artists want to have one flat upfront payment. Other artists, if it's an already created piece, you know, maybe it's a licensing agreement. Other artists actually just want us to donate a percentage of proceeds to some cause they care about, we worked with Stefan Sagmeister, a year or two ago, he's a super famous graphic designer out in New York. And he didn't want any compensation for the product at all, he just wanted us to donate 10% of proceeds to the New York City High Line. So we happily do that stuff. All in, we try to keep the margin on those products about the same. So whether it's 10%, going to Stefan or 10%, going to New York City highlight or something in that neighborhood, we just want it that the margin stays relatively intact there. But where the money goes, you know, it's very flexible.

22:46

From a business perspective, I love the concept because it's almost like you're, you're reducing your costs, obviously not needing to have too many designers on staff. Granted, I know you're a designer at one point, which actually sparks another question. At what point did you stop designing for a rumble? Or have you?

23:03

I mean, I definitely still weigh in creating a lot of the art, you know, from scratch myself, but I'm definitely still involved when we're doing our line planning and determining which directions we want to pursue and continue developing. But yeah, I don't I don't open Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop very often these days, probably three years, actually, at this point.

23:28

But yeah, so like I was saying, like, it's really interesting, because I imagine you reduce your cost of having too many designers on staff at any time. You're also basically taking in outside sources that probably have audiences that may not have heard from you the chances of them obviously helping promote it, to a certain extent, are pretty beneficial as well. Like it is a very smart approach to expanding the product line while keeping sales while keeping your costs down. And while getting that extra marketing out of it. Like it's very Win Win across the board. What kind sparked the idea behind putting this program together?

24:02

Yeah, so I would say just as a point of clarity, I do think that it is a creative to our bottom line, like it does help us reduce costs. However, I think the cost savings don't necessarily come in a reduced headcount necessity here, I think it actually comes more in the form of, we don't have to spend as much marketing the product because the artists do the marketing. So that's actually where I would say that the efficiency comes in. But I'm sorry, what was the original question there that you were getting?

24:33

What sparked the idea to just put this into the program together?

24:37

I mean, it came from the fact that that we started putting our own art on there and we realized that we have this huge canvas, you know like we have definitively the biggest Canvas in apparel or outdoor of any brand. And so we realized what type of printing technology we had access to. It was pretty good at the time. We've actually done a lot to develop it, and we just thought this is a perfect canvas for an artist to express themselves. And we can tell a cool story, we can have them help us market it. And you know, again, going back to creating that emotional connection, we can create really beautiful, bespoke pieces that connect with consumers in a more meaningful way. So it was kind of obvious, it wasn't honest, it wasn't, it wasn't really backed into with like a really sophisticated financial model about how to like, this is going to save us on costs and all that it's ended up in some cases helping us in that way. In other cases, you know, sometimes we hire an artist and we pay them too much money and, and the print doesn't really hit. And we ended up having to spend money marketing it and moving through the unit. So it's not all you know, it would be we haven't done an analysis where he determined like, this is a creative or challenges or bottom line. But overall, it's a good program that consumers really like. So we're gonna keep doing it.

25:52

Yeah. So obviously, you came up with this plan. Like there are so many aspects that have been built over the past, you know, nine-plus years that you guys have been around. And I'm basing that off of just what your LinkedIn says, is that is it nine plus years, like since you were in that car and came up with the idea?

26:10

Yes, since I was in the car, we technically incorporated it in March of 2014. So we're, you know, we're in our eighth year here. Yeah. Pretty close. Yeah.

26:21

So then, eight years, you mentioned your pretty much your first month, you did a quarter of a million on Kickstarter, obviously. And then you mentioned it took some time to grow. Now, you have far surpassed eight figures annually. What what do you think is, from a founders perspective, from your perspective, specifically, what do you think was your specific like, thing that helped you get it to that point, and then just as a business as the whole, like, what helped you guys kind of continue on that path, and be able to get to where you are now?

26:52

Yeah, I think I think for me, specifically, I'm a huge believer in coaching. You know, prior to prior to rumble, I was a designer, I had managed like one or two people ever in my life, I had no background in finance, I never used you know, any sort of modeling software for you know, no Excel, no, Google Sheets, none of that. And, and I didn't have a lot of management experience and systems process, I was very much like on the creative sort of end the of the professional spectrum. And so I've had to rely on a lot of advice from mentors and coaches and advisors, to level me up and level my skill set up to be able to be a CEO. And to scale as a CEO, like when, when the company is, you know, three or five employees, you can kind of still be, you know, whatever it is you're naturally good at, and you're sort of working as a group together to get the thing to the next hurdle. Now we're, you know, 40 plus employees, and there's a number of layers between me and some of the other people that work in the company. And so, learning how to delegate learning how to prioritize things that really matter, learning how to listen to the team and understand where good ideas are coming from, that all for me has taken a lot of practice and coaching, and working with people that have done it. And so that's, that's been a big part of my journey. And my evolution, as far as the company goes, I would say it's pretty similar actually, it's, it's leveraging the advice of people that we trust that we have in our network to tell us, you know, what the best next move is, you know, that scaling, scaling fundamentally, is not just about earning more money, it's about developing processes and systems that allow, allow people to be more efficient. And so, you know, we've taken a lot of cues from advisors we have about when the time is right to do things like, you know, implement an ERP, or bring in a sales agency or in house, some marketing thing we were doing. And, you know, being really strategic and cautious about when we do those things. So we don't do it prematurely or sandbag ourselves with implementing some new process, and not actually focusing on growing the business. So it's, it's, I wouldn't say there's like a silver bullet answer to that. It's just been an evolution where we kind of keep an eye on what the business needs, what I need to be as the CEO of the business, and putting energy and time and resources towards accomplishing those things.

29:23

Beautiful. While I don't want to take too much more of your time, obviously I really appreciate you having you on the show. I would love to give you an opportunity here to just kind of let everyone know where they can find out more about yourself and obviously rumble Sure. So

29:36

the easiest way is rumble.com That's our website runpl.com You can also of course check out all of our social links. We're sold in you know over 1000 retail doors across the country. Some of our bigger accounts are REI, Dick's Sporting Goods Bass Pro Cabela's and you know, five or 600 other accounts that you know are probably close to where you live. So check them out. We have a dealer locator on our website.

30:03

Perfect. Well, I really appreciate having you on the show. Obviously, everyone else who tuned in thanks you so much for tuning in. Obviously, make sure you rate reviews and subscribe on all the fun places, whether you're on Apple podcasts or Spotify, YouTube, or go ecommshow.com. But as usual, thanks again and we will see you all next time. Have a good one.

30:21

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