Digging Into Data and Turning it Into a Strategy - Duluth Labs | Ep. #016
In this 16th episode of The E-Comm Show, our host and BlueTuskr CEO Andrew Maff is with Joe Shelerud from Duluth Labs and Ad Advance. Learn more about how our guest grew their company into a very profitable one thru gathering data and using it to their advantage.
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Digging Into Data and Turning it Into a Strategy - Duluth Labs
Andrew Maff and Joe Shelerud
About Joe Shelerud
I’m Joe Shelerud, Co-founder and CEO of Duluth Labs and Ad Advance, a digital ad agency specializing in Amazon advertising. I have a business and engineering background and started selling on Amazon back in 2014.
By nature, I love to dig into the data when it comes to strategy. So, when I started running the numbers on my own Amazon ads, I knew there were opportunities I was missing out on. When I started looking around for tips and help to expand on how I was optimizing my campaigns, I came to find that the approach I was taking was quite a bit more advanced than others I was connecting with. So, I thought, there might be a need for other sellers out there to find the next level of support with their ads as well.
I got in touch with a friend that I worked with at a previous job, he took a look at what I was doing and had a ton of great ideas on how I could do it even better. Things rapidly progressed from there.
My business partner, Matt, and I have been helping sellers advertise on Amazon since we started Ad Advance in 2017. We now offer full-service PPC and DSP management in-house.
I love managing Amazon advertising campaigns for my clients, so they can get back to the parts of their business only they can do.
Start proactively cutting your bids or you're going to waste a lot of advertising spend, don't rely purely on backward-looking at automation, you know, it's gonna drop. So make those manual moves, make those manual adjustments, or you're gonna waste a lot of money going into the end of the year. This is Joe Shelerud from AD advance. Hey, this is Paul Johnson with Mass View. Hey guys, this is Jordan West from Mindful marketing and the Kindred studio, you're listening to view and you're listening, and you're listening to the show.
Welcome to The E-comm show, presented by BlueTuskr, the number one place to hear the inside scoop from other e-commerce experts. They share their secrets on how they scaled their business and are now living the dream. Now, here is your host, Andrew, Maff
Everyone and welcome to another episode of The E-comm Show. I'm your host, Andrew Maff and today I am joined by Joe Shelerud of Duluth labs. Joe, how are you doing? Right for a good show. I'm ready for a good show. Thanks for having me on. Andrew, thank you for helping me learn how to pronounce your name correctly. Yeah, nailed it. You nailed it. Um, so let's dive in. So you are the founder of Duluth labs obviously knowing how you got your start specifically on the Amazon site? I know that's not where you're only at. But why don't I let you take that moment that we always do and let you kind of give us a little bit about the I'll get it. A little bit of your background. Yeah, sounds good. I'll give you some of my backgrounds. So let's see, my Amazon journey started in 2014, which is about seven years ago now, which is crazy. So I've got a chemical engineering background. And as I was going through college, I, we were taking organic chemistry classes, and you had to buy these little organic chemistry molecule sets. And they're just these plastic pieces, kind of think of like Lego for nerds, or you can build up different molecules and see their 3d structure. And at the time, they were like 90 to 120 bucks, and you'd have to buy at the bookstore. So fast forward to 2014, I was listening to some different podcasts about this thing called selling on Amazon. And I thought, yeah, maybe I'll give this a little try. I had always been tinkering with other businesses. And this one seemed like a fun one to start with. At that time, I was living in Kansas with my wife, we're both from northern Minnesota, you can probably hear a little bit from the accent. And so we were trying to figure out a way to move back to Duluth, which is a smaller town on the tip of Lake Superior. Being a chemical engineer, there are not too many jobs up here, just because it is a smaller town. And so I was always trying to find a different way on how we can build up a business and move back up to be with family, we had just had our first son at the time. And so it was a really big driver for us to find the second source of income to move back up. So during that, I launched Duluth labs. So So these organic chemistry, molecular model kits, and they're used for required course materials for a lot of different college courses overall. So built up that business quite a bit. And as we went into that got much more involved in the Amazon ecosystem. Wow. So I'm actually very familiar. I know exactly what you're talking about. I used to have those back in school and everything like I remember those. How did you What made you decide to get into those specifically? And then how did you end up sourcing that? Sure, yeah. So at the time, there was only one major bookstore competitor, that was involved in the space. And so really high priced not much competition. And the other thing that really drove me to that space is that, well, Amazon sales are great. And over time, we're going to start seeing more competition come in, you have the bookstore and the school component with it. So we have a lot of sales that go directly to bookstores. And you typically get a much better margin from those because you're not having to pay all the Amazon fees on top of it. And is this recurring model, it's very seasonal, you know, so started the semesters or our Christmas times or Q fours. But getting into that space one, we saw a huge opportunity, especially at the time and then to just being able to have an outside sales channel that's not fully dependent on Amazon where you can get those better margins. That was kind of the reason and you know, I was doing all the different like screenings and looking at different niches, but this one seemed to really fit in with my skill set. You know, not everybody can develop a good solid instruction set on how to use these molecular sets. So you know, putting together the instructions and everything to that helped give us an answer. So that's kind of how we landed on that product overall. You got a degree in chemistry, do you think you'd end up just being an E-commerce seller? For the most part? Yeah, not at all. Yeah. And so that's I don't know, it's kind of funny how the world works. Yeah. So I've been in chemical engineering. And as I was going through organic chemistry class Never did I think like at that time, like, oh, you know, I should probably sell these things and become an E-commerce seller. Nice. So, yeah, I know, you cater to Amazon, we're definitely getting into that. But you met. So you mentioned that you were selling directly to bookstores. And that was obviously most of the breadwinning there, did you start there? Or did you start on Amazon,
started on Amazon, but then tried to figure out what some other channels we can do. So, you know, took the traditional route, were started on Amazon, but created a Shopify store. And at the time, you could link all the inventory together and ship it via Amazon, but then started reaching out and it wasn't directly to bookstores either. Like one of the key pieces for us was trying to find the key decision makers for these purchases. And so it's not the bookstores usually, typically, it's the college professors. And so if you can imagine trying to sell to a bookstore versus a college chemistry professors is very different. And so what we ended up doing is sending out free sets to these different college professors just so they could try, the set, and also sent out our pricing information. So did a big outreach to many, many different college professors throughout different universities. Some were interested somewhere not but those that were interested, now you can multiply the number of students that they have, like, you know, I went to the University of Minnesota. And so in my college course, we had 300 people, and that teacher had three different courses. If you can get the materials required for some of these college courses, it can multiply pretty quickly in the amount of purchases. So we tried to go to the most leverage buyer, which was a cool instance in this case, because if you found those right people, um, you could actually drive a lot of purchases just from a single decision maker. And so this was all back in 2014. Pretty much. Yep. When you started doing that, yep. 2014 2015 timeframe? Wow, there are so many sellers now that don't even really think that they should be diversifying off Amazon. So it's impressive that you knew it right away. Sure. Yeah. And I mean, as we go along, like, yes, there's a ton of volume on Amazon. But there's a ton of competition, as I'm sure many people are seeing, you continue to get squeezed more and more and margins, there's going to be more like competitors coming in the space trying to knock off your initial products. I felt that personally, I when I first entered, it was me in that college book store, or that college book provider producer. And since then, there have been so many different entrants into the field. So it's definitely changed over time. Oh, competitors that are so fun. Yeah. So obviously, you went into Amazon, you started doing really well there. And then I also know that you really got into Amazon, you actually started your own Amazon advertising agency called ad advance, correct? Yeah, that's correct. And so as I was growing, and scaling, Duluth labs, I started really focusing on my advertising. And at the time, it was really easy. I mean, it was all just sponsored products, there wasn't much competition, you could start up an auto campaign and get these great results and life was good. But even then, there were some different strategies that I was starting to implement. I will be in the engineering nerd type. I was building out my own spreadsheets and different tools and everything. But after a little while, when I was scaling the business, found that my time was getting pulled in multiple directions, and had to figure out what I was going to focus on. And at the time, it was my econ business that I wanted to focus on. But as I reached out to other agencies in the space, what I found out is that what I was doing, and the tools that I had set up, were actually a lot more complex than what I was finding or what was being offered from these different agencies. So just having that, you know, entrepreneur business building mentality, it was a big lightbulb went off that, you know, maybe there's a spot where I could come in here and help sellers with their advertising. And so that was kind of the foundation of ad advance. So I know some agencies don't like to share their secret sauce. But can you tell us a little bit about what the complex setup was that you had gone?
Oh, sure. Yeah. And so at the time, and looking back, it was very simple, and it's gotten much, much more complex. But really, what the basis that we've taken is that there are some pieces of Amazon advertising that you should build into software. There are so many data pieces, bid updates, campaign funnel, structures, things like that, that you can incorporate into the software. But at the same time, there's a lot of pieces that you do not want to incorporate into the software. There's a lot of things tuition that's involved, there's a lot of intervention that's involved. Like, for instance, coming into the holiday shopping time. Like, if you just go off of historical data, which a lot of software does, you're not going to anticipate Black Friday and Cyber Monday, or the major slowdown in conversion rates before Christmas. So I partnered up with Matt Wakeland, who's our co-founder and advance, he's really good at building out processes and really likes system thinking. And together, we're able to really invest, we started and invested in our technology. And so we've got the proprietary software that we set up. But at the end of the day, what it's doing is it's really doing all the what could be manual work in the background. So then it leaves us a bunch more time to really focus on what are the key goals like advertising is only one part of your seller business? So instead of just looking at advertising in a vacuum, how do you figure out it's and how do you tie it back to the key goals that you're trying to achieve? And like everything else in Amazon, it's gotten more complex, more advanced, more competition. So yeah, every day gets more challenging as a seller on Amazon. But if you can find the right ways to utilize those features, you can definitely give yourself an advantage. So ad advance is it sounds like you have a manual as well as an automated approach when you're overseeing advertising, correct? Yep, yeah. And so if you look at us, we're kind of the split, like, there's a lot of software providers. And what they tend to do is, in my opinion, over automate things, because they're trying to provide a one-stop solution. So they do really well at what they're designed to do. But I feel like you're leaving an opportunity on the table there. Because there is a lot of like, you know, as, as the seller, the owner of the business, you're going to know so much more about your products and your competition than some algorithms is going to be able to figure out. And then at the other end of the spectrum, you have a lot of agencies that do everything manually, or just have some more basic tools or use some of the standard tools that are available out there. And I see some that are leaving opportunities on the table, just because they can't get as deep as they could be it especially with all the different ad types, all the different strategies, placement adjustments, bidding adjustments, the new features that are getting added daily and weekly. And so kind of where we fall is the split between the two, we've got our tech, but we make sure that we're building it strictly for our use. And it's just to supplement all those decisions that we want to make further down the road. So what do you think is the biggest issue when someone is overseeing their own advertising? Do you think it's like, you know, just not watching it enough not having parts that are automated? In my opinion, I think it all starts from the beginning and how you structure everything and how you process out stuff? Like what's your thought on? What are the most important aspects when you're running Amazon advertising?
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think the first piece is just time. Just from a seller's perspective, man, the advertising space is changing so quickly. And I have a hard time keeping up. And this is what I do now. Like, this is what I dedicate my time to. And so just trying to know like, how to structure things. So like you said, I think one key thing from the start is structuring the different pieces for your advertising. And what I see a lot of sellers who are just jumping into it is trying to do everything at once. They hear all this stuff that people like me are doing or different agencies and think that they had to do it all at once. And I feel like you stretch yourself far too thin, especially if you're starting on a more restricted advertising budget just like I did when I started because I totally bootstrap the business. And so my recommendations if you're getting going on on Amazon advertising, start with sponsored products, that's the bread and butter that's going to drive 70 to 80% of your ad spend. Once you get that structure down, you know, you can start with auto and manual campaigns and then build out a little campaign funnel structure where you take the best performing search terms and move them downstream. After that, I would expand into sponsor brands, which tend to be about 20% of ad spend. And then after that, you can start going into the sponsored display and there's product targeting which kind of acts like sponsored products, or else there are other cool tools that they've been rolling out recently like retargeting, so if somebody viewed your products, you can retarget them, and now even repurchases too, which is great if you sell a consumable product, you can add that in. But I think probably the key thing from the start, don't spread yourself too thin. If you're doing this by yourself, I would just educate yourself on one piece at a time just because there's so much to take in and time is very limited. And then keep expanding as you go. Use those learnings from that first piece and kind of put it to the next pieces. If you start With everything right at the beginning, you're probably going to waste a lot of spends, and it's going to take a lot of time and you might get frustrated. Yeah. So I'd love to pick your brain about something. Sure. What is your thoughts on the correlation between the paid advertising side on Amazon as well as the organic traffic side? Sure, yep. It's a great question. And the tough thing is, it's not a direct correlation. But we can definitely see it. And so we've had many instances where we've had these split tests or different tests that have gotten run just because ads get paused. So say, for whatever reason, Amazon decides that you can't run ads for a certain product, we've had this happen multiple times, you know, just like any other issue listings, get suspended accounts getting suspended, we have the same thing on the advertising side. And so what we've seen is, we've had some really good performing ranking products. And then for whatever reason, Amazon says you can't advertise for these anymore. Nothing else changes for the product, but it will slowly drop in the rankings. And so Amazon advertising is great for driving in search volume, and relevancy. And so if more people come in, and they search for, say, a general search term, and they click your ad, and they end up purchasing, that's a great flag to Amazon that says, Okay, this product is really relevant for this keyword, I'm going to boost it up in the rankings. And so we've seen time and time again, if you stop advertising, it does impact your rankings as you go. So what we'll do is we'll implement ranking strategies for advertising. And so what we'll do is we'll focus on say, what's your five to 10 keywords that you know, you should be ranking for. And for those who will get more aggressive, we'll use some of the better converting placements like the top search placements for sponsored products, they tend to convert the best. So let's pay a little bit more, let's get those clicks, they're going to convert really well, it's going to give Amazon solid flakes that says your product is relevant for these keywords. And it's going to increase the ranking over time. Yeah, so I mean, generally speaking, like what we see is that as Amazon continually gets more and more competitive, advertising is getting more of a performance as a profit driver. Now, it's more of a necessary fee to maintain those rankings, because if you're not going to do it, your competitors are, they're going to get those solid flakes, which will help organic rankings, which is the key thing that we try to get, you're going to make the majority of your profit from organic rankings. So advertising is kind of a way to help drive that.
So how do you optimize for that, that kind of strategy, because I know a lot of sellers, they always end up targeting a kind of target a cost. I don't want to spend X more than this for whatever reason. But then they don't really look at what many referred to as their tacos, right? So like your advertising versus all your revenue. So how did you within the advertising channel, optimize those campaigns to leverage the overall revenue if it's not really something that you can see within the advertising channel? Yeah, and this is where that intuition really comes in. If you look at some of the automated solutions, like you said, they're typically going to optimize say, on an overall KPI like, like a conosce. But what happens is that say, I really want to rank for I sell, I sell basketball. And so I want to rank for basketball, you know, we should probably get a little bit more specific, but we'll just we'll stay really general. Yeah. And so what we do is we have different KPIs for those strategies, say for like a ranking strategy campaign, versus our typical campaign funnel structure, which is going to be more of an A cost target. And so what you want to do is you want to split and kind of sort the campaigns based on the key goals that you have. So for ranking strategies, really, what we want to do is we want to be aggressive for those major keywords we want to rank for, and we're going to pay a little bit extra for those top placements. A cost may not look as good for those specific campaigns. But if they're driving up your organic ranking, and now you're making more sales organically, it's probably going to be a major win for you, because you're going to make the majority of your profits from those organic rankings. The tricky thing is that it's not like I can't immediately like if I put in a ranking campaign yesterday, I'm not going to see those results immediately. It definitely takes time to go. And so that's the other piece of that intuition that you have to look over time you implement the strategy, you have to give it time and then see if that ranking truly does improve. If it does, it probably means that you want to keep that ranking strategy going or maybe even get more aggressive on it to drive more sales volume, but it's definitely a lot term horizon. And it's tough for an engineer nerd like me because it's not a direct one-to-one correlation. And you can't see those impacts immediately. So it's definitely a more longer-term timeframe for it. So I guess the key way to look at your campaigns, segment them by strategy. So for ranking, let's get more aggressive for some highly targeted keywords. And then you have your general campaign funnel structure where let's do a general cost target for that try to drive extra sales for a lot longer-term or longer tail keywords as we go. Thoughts on the retargeting so I know obviously, you can do the practice play or if you have the ability, which as an agency, I know you do a doing DSP like which what's your preference? Do you like them? Do you not like them? I know that they can be kind of like, obviously, because their attribution gets credit for impressions. It's kind of like, I don't really know, but some sellers like it, some don't want it. What are your thoughts on it? Yeah, it really depends on what your goals are for your overall product. So if you have a very low-margin product, or you're really tight on your margins, retargeting is gonna be tough to get the return that you want for those incremental sales. But for those people who have built up really solid brands that say you get repeat purchases over time, or somebody buys one-year products, and then they typically come back and buy other your products. Retargeting is a great option. So, you know, if we just look at a time period like Black Friday, Cyber Monday holiday weekend, we had a ton of traffic coming. And there were a lot of people who just viewed your product detail page but didn't convert it into a sale. And so those people we know are interested enough to look at the product detail page. But for whatever reason, didn't convert to a sale, they're probably pretty likely to convert to a sale if we can just kind of give them a little nudge and remind them. So we love implementing retargeting, but you do have to have that extra margin to drive that a sponsored product is typically going to convert a lot better than like a retargeting campaign because some of the ads are shown off of Amazon. So a cost-wise, it's not going to look as good, but it's a great way to increase sales that you probably wouldn't have gotten. Just because,
you know, they looked at your page, but they didn't convert originally. So it's a great way to drive those incremental sales back to your product, detail pages for sales. Overall, if you're looking between sponsor display and DSP, the sponsored display is super easy to implement. It's available in the ad console for any brand registered seller. In terms of like control, we have a lot more control on DSP, we can nerd out and I could talk to you for 15 minutes on how we can taper different timeframes and frequencies and creative placements and everything else like that. But what I would say is I would start with sponsor display, you can definitely test it out. Just know that it could be viewed based or it could be clicked based on what bidding type you're selecting. So just know when you're looking at your row as are your a cost that you're comparing apples to apples resta sponsored ads are clicked this. So yeah, you can get attribution for some people who viewed your ads but may have gone back and purchased anyways. So all these pieces we take into account, there's a lot of nuances there. Again, I could talk forever on this. But my general suggestion is I would definitely test it. If you've got that extra margin, you've got that solid brand, and you've got products that can potentially be cross-purchased, or people tend to repurchase them as they go. Yeah. So at the time of this recording, we're still in peak q4, we've surpassed a Black Friday, Cyber Monday. How is it looking so far for you in comparison to last year? Is it more or less what you were kind of expecting? I've heard some people say it was actually a little bit lower than what they thought it was gonna be sure others said it was, you know, a big rebound. So obviously, it's kind of teachers' own but what are your thoughts on it? Yeah, great question. So what we've seen, I mean, we've got a couple of weird instances this year. So we've had all the supply chain disruptions. And so some people are out there and they're seeing shelves that are not fully stocked in stores. And so just talking to a lot of people, many people have completed holiday shopping far before Black Friday, Cyber Monday, just because they were worried that things were going to run out of stock. If we look at the stats for Black Friday and Cyber Monday this year, it was definitely it. We didn't see the massive spikes that we saw in previous years' 2019 We saw a really solid spike up for Black Friday. That was the highest traffic period but then Cyber Monday was actually the best performing day if you combine traffic and conversion rate. If you look at 2020 We didn't see as much of a spike on either day, and I think it's because another piece is that companies are really spreading out their deals, and they're going earlier and earlier. And another piece is, if you look at Black Friday, a lot of the deals are not just black Friday, they'll say their Black Friday deals, but the last till Sunday. And so overall, when we look at the trends this year, we did not see as much of a spike on Black Friday, or Cyber Monday, they were still very solid days, but in terms of like performance compared to previous years, they weren't as solid. And so I think you've got kind of this tapered approach where you had more shopping initially before the holiday season, and we're probably still gonna see a lot after I just don't think there was that urgency to find all these major deals this weekend. Yeah, personally, for us, we were, we were kind of expecting this trend. So we didn't get we kept bids constant through. And so overall results look pretty solid for us. But if you were anticipating what previous year's had done, a cost may have jumped up a bit or spend may have been a bit higher than assuming that we see the same trend next year, would you advise sellers to basically start, you know, increasing bids, increasing budgets, bringing in that data like,
right after Halloween? Sure, yeah. So you definitely want to, you want to keep reviewing what performance is looking like as you go and then tweaking your strategy based on that. So in general, we started to see traffic definitely increase throughout November. Conversion rates were pretty solid throughout that whole time period. And then make sure you're increasing your budgets over Black Friday, Cyber Monday because you're gonna get a lot more traffic. But for bids, I would take a much more temporary approach, I wouldn't make any drastic bid moves over those periods. We have this awesome period coming up now where conversion rates tend to dip for a couple of days. But then if we get into like the later part of the first week of December, all the way to the 21st, or the 22nd. Whenever Prime shipping ends, these are going to be some of the best converting times that we have on Amazon, you're gonna see cost per click go up a bit as people get more aggressive. But people have much more buying intent as it gets closer and closer to Christmas time. So now is a great time, we'll keep reviewing performance as we go. We're not going to make as much a high of bid adjustments as we have in previous years just knowing what the existing shopping trends are. But yeah, the key thing is definitely to look at what your performance looks like, make those calls, but you've got to make some future forecasts. And this is where if you rely purely on automation, you may miss it or may make the wrong assumption. So that's where the intuition really comes in. This is that time of year where I really stand by as automation drives me crazy. Like, there's certain aspects I agree where it's like fitting adjustments and things like that. It's like, okay, you can definitely put rules in place and automated. But like, like you said earlier, right, where basically you have automation that's taking data history and adjusting accordingly. So then you hit Cyber Monday, Black Friday times, and it's got like no data to work off of, and then you have the opposite problem. By q1, you're spending so much and your bids are incredibly high. And there's like no competition, and you're spending all this money and your ad costs or tacos or whichever one you're tracking is going through the roof. So what is your, what's your approach going into q1? Sure, yeah. And so another great point. And like, automation is great if you have the right goals, and you're steering it in the right direction. And so you have to provide that steering as you go. And so another key piece to look out for is if you're using full automation when you hit 21st, or the 22nd of December, what pure automation is going to do is it's going to look backward, and it's going to say, man, conversion rates have been great. Like, I'm actually probably going to increase bids. But what we know is between the 21st, or the 22nd of December through the 25th or the 26th. Conversion rates dropped by about 50% historically. And so what that means is that within a week, if you kept bids constant, your ad costs could double, because your cost per click is going to convert it to half the rate that it did just that week before. And so what we tend to see is we proactively cut bids on the 21st on the 22nd, because we know that it's going to drop quite a bit. We see overall cost per click, a lot of other people don't seem to move it. And so it keeps bids really high. And then like a week or two after the conversion rates drop, now you start to see bids go down because the automation finally caught up based on historical data. So the key thing is as you're going into the 21st or the 22nd of December, start proactively cutting your bids or you're going to waste a lot of advertising spend, don't rely purely on backward-looking at automation, you know, it's gonna drop. So make those manual moves, make those manual adjustments, or you're gonna waste a lot of money going into the end of the year. How frequently do you have the software you guys are using? How frequently do you have it adjusting bids? Do you have it on a daily basis, a weekly basis, an hourly basis?
Yeah, so we've got a couple of different frequencies, we update bids daily, we use some items that typically follow trends and patterns. So for instance, Saturday's convert typically converts a lot worse than Mondays for the average account, and we look at an account by account basis. So we'll boost bids up a little bit or a little down based on the day of the week. And then other seasonal factors that are thrown in there. So I had some fun putting together some machine learning algorithms for this. But machine learning if anybody ever talks about machine learning and AI, it only works for repeatable patterns like that, okay, you need that steering in that human chain. For typical bit updates, we'll make them on a weekly basis. That's typically when we've got enough data to make solid bid adjustments. And these are going to be the bigger moves, it's going to be included where we move keywords and product targets down the funnel and do all very different adjustments and set negatives and placement adjustments and all that good stuff. So the weekly basis is what we use there. If you do anything more frequently, you had to be a really high volume seller to have enough data to make meaningful moves. So typically a weekly basis is going to be good enough. That being said, if you have major events that you know are coming, just like our last weekend that we just had, or going into the Christmas season, like Do not wait for the end of that week. If you know something's going to change, make those updates right away. Really appreciate. Thank you so much for being on the show. I don't want to take up too much more of your time. I would love to give you the opportunity, of course to kind of let everyone know well, where they can learn a little bit more about both Duluth labs and Ad Advance. Yeah, for sure. Um, probably the best way to find me is on it, you can go to our website at adadvance.com or LinkedIn, Facebook constantly putting out some content, mostly advertising related. And the other spot is if you want to really dive deep into Amazon advertising, we've got the ad project podcast. So that's a fun way we get pretty deep there on different topics and how you can implement them. So that's probably the best spot to find me. Perfect. Joe, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being on the show. Everyone who tuned in everyone who listened. Of course per usual, thank you for listening. Make sure you rate review, subscribe, wherever you're listening to this, whether it's on YouTube or on any of your favorite podcast platforms. But of course, until next time, we'll see you all out there and keep on selling. Have a good one.
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